#BlueSky isn't decentralised or federated.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@rob Yes. And the Labeler. As the diagram shows, there is no direct connection from PDS (Personal Data Store) to the AppView/FeedGen.

Pete Keen

@jwildeboer the PLC service is also centralized with no plans to allow federation afaict, which is problematic as your did:plc is your true handle and the PLC service maps handle <=> display name. There is a did:web as well but there isn't a migration path between them.

mkj

@rob ActivityPub relays are specifically to exchange large number of posts between many different instances. That requires a good bit of horsepower and Internet bandwidth; and connecting to one means your instance is suddenly getting a lot more traffic. That's good for some things, bad for others.

You can run a single-user Fediverse instance *just fine* without ever touching an ActivityPub relay, in which case you'll see (and basically only see) posts from those you follow.

@jwildeboer

Rob

@mkj @jwildeboer

I ported my Twitter account to Mastodon to one of the larger servers (techhub.social) which likely has a relay. Then I moved to my own instance. Those 2 hops gave me some people to follow. That’s likely why others on my server don’t post much.

Circling back to the #bluesky discussion. What good are distributed relays if they aren’t available to everyone (because of the costs)?

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@rob I also run my own instance. I tried using a relay long ago, but it only filled up my storage with posts I never read. Following hashtags to find new people to follow helped me a lot. Also looking at the list of people that accounts I like are following helps. My home timeline is very diverse and interesting now, without relays. @mkj

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

And as I am experimenting with local AI and run one of the #Granite models on my laptop, I asked it about the difference between Mastodon and Bluesky. Well:

"The main difference between Mastodon and Bluesky is that Mastodon is a decentralized platform with local instances, while Bluesky is a centralized platform with a single, global network."

Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋

@jwildeboer you can absolutely run your own relay and people have already done that for testing at least

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@mackuba Sure. At some point in the future all of Bluesky will be fully decentralised and reach federation levels that the ActivityStream already has And that point is a moving target since years.

Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋

@jwildeboer I won't argue that it isn't as decentralized in practice as AP right now, I'm just saying that "they promise that in future you might be able to run your own relay" is misleading, because you can do that today

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@mackuba And, as you said, that is for testing ATM. And the other argument with the did:plc still stands. Anyway, right now Bluesky is by all practical means centralised and I am not convinced that will really change. ATProto stays a proprietary, non-open standard, owned by a non-open organisation, not a community or SSO (Standard Setting Organisation) IMHO.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@mackuba "The author mentions that setting up a Relay requires around 4.5 TB of disk space, and that it’s growing by around 18 GB a day. However, that was said before the most recent bump in growth. The data and processing requirements will only accelerate as more people use the service." - https://anderegg.ca/2024/11/15/maybe-bluesky-has-won

Jiří Fiala Total Landscaping

@mackuba @jwildeboer relay, yes. So Bsky is just offloading networking costs onto the users, while keeping power.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@stooovie Same with hosting your own PDS. However, Bluesky/atproto relays demand A LOT of resources. 4-5TB of storage with a growth rate of around 20GB/day, so while technically you can run your own relay, practically it doesn't make sense in its current form. @mackuba

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

The more I look at ATproto, the "standard" behind Bluesky, the more I see vague promises of full decentralisation and federation that "currently" are implemented in centralised ways, because "right now" they "unfortunately" have to do it that way. No clear roadmap on when these centralised elements will be removed/replaced. Now if a "standard" allows for such fundamental deviations, I cannot take it serious. That's just me, though.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

I also fail to see a lot of community uptake on creating alternative implementations of ATproto. Compared to the creative chaos around ActivityPub/ActivityStreams it definitely feels more like a walled garden.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

So, in conclusion and IMHO, BlueSky is a successful Twitter alternative.

The Fediverse including Mastodon is not. The fediverse is a fundamentally different and bigger thing due to its truly federated nature.

And both can have their place in the market of attention.

One ultimately is a commercial endeavour while the other is not. But for the general audience that simply is not the decisive factor. One can find that A Bad Thing, or one can shrug and move on in ones preferred direction

Juha Autero

@jwildeboer It's also Twitter alternative in the sense that there is nothing to stop it becoming similar cesspool as Twitter.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@jautero Yes. But we also have quite our share of trolls, misogynists, racists and haters in the Fediverse. Most instance admins I know however care a lot about keeping them blocked and away from their users.

⁂ Justin (StayGrounded.online)

@jwildeboer @jautero Yes exactly, Mastodon has mechanisms that prevent it from turning into a cesspool.

Bryan Ruby 🌤️

@JustinH @jwildeboer @jautero Bluesky too has put a lot of thought toward moderation. Both Mastodon and Bluesky are similar in that they’re light on algorithms and when in use are voluntary. Threads on the other hand despite connecting to the #fediverse is a bigger “cesspool” in your feed magnet due to relying on Meta algorithms. I plan to drop my Threads account once they have enough ActivityPub features to allow me to fully engage desired accounts via Mastodon.